Comments on: May I paraphrase you… out of context… General Jackson? http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/ Fri, 25 Dec 2009 02:18:37 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Harry Smeltzer http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/#comment-827 Harry Smeltzer Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:41:52 +0000 http://cenantua.wordpress.com/?p=1161#comment-827 Maybe some day, if I get a new release that I can tie into it. Maybe some day, if I get a new release that I can tie into it.

]]> By: cenantua http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/#comment-826 cenantua Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:55:44 +0000 http://cenantua.wordpress.com/?p=1161#comment-826 Thanks for the tip on that book, Harry. I never heard of it and may consider purchasing a copy. Are you going to include something about it in your six pick column? Thanks for the tip on that book, Harry. I never heard of it and may consider purchasing a copy. Are you going to include something about it in your six pick column?

]]> By: Harry Smeltzer http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/#comment-822 Harry Smeltzer Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:37:24 +0000 http://cenantua.wordpress.com/?p=1161#comment-822 Robert, After a few phone conversations with Don Hackinson, a Mosby guy who lives down that way, I purchased a copy of L. M. Helm's history of the Black Horse, "Defend Our Beloved Country". Some good stuf in there. If you're thinking of buying a copy, let me know. Don sells them at list and the money goes to The Fauquier Historical Society, I think. Robert,

After a few phone conversations with Don Hackinson, a Mosby guy who lives down that way, I purchased a copy of L. M. Helm’s history of the Black Horse, “Defend Our Beloved Country”. Some good stuf in there. If you’re thinking of buying a copy, let me know. Don sells them at list and the money goes to The Fauquier Historical Society, I think.

]]> By: cenantua http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/#comment-816 cenantua Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:50:53 +0000 http://cenantua.wordpress.com/?p=1161#comment-816 Yup... boys from Warrenton, Va. and the surrounding area. Also, I think I read something that showed that John Brown was surprised at how well these fellows treated him. It may have been something in the unit history of the 4th Va. Cav. Yup… boys from Warrenton, Va. and the surrounding area. Also, I think I read something that showed that John Brown was surprised at how well these fellows treated him. It may have been something in the unit history of the 4th Va. Cav.

]]> By: Harry Smeltzer http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/#comment-814 Harry Smeltzer Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:37:56 +0000 http://cenantua.wordpress.com/?p=1161#comment-814 Yes. The Black Horse Troop became Company H of the 4th VA Cav later in 1861. At Bull Run they were an independent company under Billy Payne that was placed under the command of Radford (Col) and Munford (Lt. Col), and attached to Bonham's brigade of Beauregard's army. Stuart was in Johnston's army. The troop had gained notoriety at Charlestown when it accompanied John Brown to the gallows, in 1859. By the time of Bull Run, they were bogeymen to the extent that any Rebel cavalry was assumed to be THE Black Horse Cavalry. Yes. The Black Horse Troop became Company H of the 4th VA Cav later in 1861. At Bull Run they were an independent company under Billy Payne that was placed under the command of Radford (Col) and Munford (Lt. Col), and attached to Bonham’s brigade of Beauregard’s army. Stuart was in Johnston’s army. The troop had gained notoriety at Charlestown when it accompanied John Brown to the gallows, in 1859. By the time of Bull Run, they were bogeymen to the extent that any Rebel cavalry was assumed to be THE Black Horse Cavalry.

]]> By: cenantua http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/#comment-812 cenantua Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:08:36 +0000 http://cenantua.wordpress.com/?p=1161#comment-812 O.k., time out. I have an idea what's going on. While I know that there was a "Black Horse" name identified with the 4th Va. Cav., for some reason, I think it's stuck in me from my early Civil War developmental days that Stuart led the Black Horse at Manassas (I'm getting a vision here, yes, I think it's an image from the early CW Times from the centennial era showing a cav charge in the midst of a zouave unit... I don't have my copy of the mag handy, but I'm betting it says something about the Black Horse... which would be wrong, right?). Of course, that couldn't be possible, because he was colonel of the 1st Va. Cav. (date of rank, 7/16/61) at the time and, I should know better because of I have had enough side-dealings with the 1st Va. Cav. in the development of the histories related to the Stuart Horse Artillery. Am I getting closer to the ballpark now? O.k., time out. I have an idea what’s going on. While I know that there was a “Black Horse” name identified with the 4th Va. Cav., for some reason, I think it’s stuck in me from my early Civil War developmental days that Stuart led the Black Horse at Manassas (I’m getting a vision here, yes, I think it’s an image from the early CW Times from the centennial era showing a cav charge in the midst of a zouave unit… I don’t have my copy of the mag handy, but I’m betting it says something about the Black Horse… which would be wrong, right?). Of course, that couldn’t be possible, because he was colonel of the 1st Va. Cav. (date of rank, 7/16/61) at the time and, I should know better because of I have had enough side-dealings with the 1st Va. Cav. in the development of the histories related to the Stuart Horse Artillery. Am I getting closer to the ballpark now?

]]> By: Harry Smeltzer http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/#comment-810 Harry Smeltzer Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:49:50 +0000 http://cenantua.wordpress.com/?p=1161#comment-810 Yes, it's Stuart. But it's not the Black Horse Troop. Check out my tags for "Zouaves" and for "Black Horse" and you'll see what I'm talking about. The painting depicts Stuart charging into the 11th NY. But descriptions of the charge by some folks (like Blackford) hint that the unit was the 14th B'Klyn. And the Black Horse Troop was a specific company of cavalry that was not with Stuart - it was with Radford and Munford, attached to Bonham. Yes, it’s Stuart. But it’s not the Black Horse Troop. Check out my tags for “Zouaves” and for “Black Horse” and you’ll see what I’m talking about. The painting depicts Stuart charging into the 11th NY. But descriptions of the charge by some folks (like Blackford) hint that the unit was the 14th B’Klyn. And the Black Horse Troop was a specific company of cavalry that was not with Stuart – it was with Radford and Munford, attached to Bonham.

]]> By: cenantua http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/#comment-809 cenantua Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:31:22 +0000 http://cenantua.wordpress.com/?p=1161#comment-809 Just looked this up... it's from Troiani's Deeds of Valor series. "First at Manassas" depicts Stuart and cav. cutting into the 11th NY. http://www.historicalartprints.com/hap/cmd?CMD=DETAIL&parent=17&prodid=54 Just looked this up… it’s from Troiani’s Deeds of Valor series. “First at Manassas” depicts Stuart and cav. cutting into the 11th NY.
http://www.historicalartprints.com/hap/cmd?CMD=DETAIL&parent=17&prodid=54

]]> By: cenantua http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/#comment-808 cenantua Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:20:09 +0000 http://cenantua.wordpress.com/?p=1161#comment-808 Harry, Didn't Troiani do a JEB Stuart print showing him at the head of a charging bunch of cav at 1st BR? I thought it was THE Black Horse, and I thought the unit they were charging into was the 14th Brooklyn... or am I mistaken. Yes, I'm partial to artillery also, though I have far more kin who would rather ride horses, carry sabres, and shoot pistols. Probably good in the long run for me, considering a rather dominating service in the cav may have preserved the family lines. Harry, Didn’t Troiani do a JEB Stuart print showing him at the head of a charging bunch of cav at 1st BR? I thought it was THE Black Horse, and I thought the unit they were charging into was the 14th Brooklyn… or am I mistaken.

Yes, I’m partial to artillery also, though I have far more kin who would rather ride horses, carry sabres, and shoot pistols. Probably good in the long run for me, considering a rather dominating service in the cav may have preserved the family lines.

]]> By: Harry Smeltzer http://cenantua.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/may-i-paraphrase-you%e2%80%a6-and-out-of-context%e2%80%a6-general-jackson/#comment-807 Harry Smeltzer Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:11:13 +0000 http://cenantua.wordpress.com/?p=1161#comment-807 Robert, I'm not so sure the Black Horse charged with Stuart at Bull Run...The troop - that is, the actual Black Horse Troop - was on the right, Stuart with the 1st VA cav on the left. I think the charge depicted in the movie was the one that was either against the 14th B'klyn or 11th NY or maybe some of both, along the Sudley Rd south of the pike. The Black Horse saw most of its action during the retreat, and I don't think Stuart was with them. I could be wrong though. Just like all Union batteries were Sherman's Battery to the Confederates, all Rebel cavalry became Black Horse Cavalry to the Federals. I know one cav guy who was pleased with Stuart's charge because they were apparently holding their sabers correctly (wrist locked, curve pointing down). But let's face it, it's just cavalry. Artillery rules! Robert,

I’m not so sure the Black Horse charged with Stuart at Bull Run…The troop – that is, the actual Black Horse Troop – was on the right, Stuart with the 1st VA cav on the left. I think the charge depicted in the movie was the one that was either against the 14th B’klyn or 11th NY or maybe some of both, along the Sudley Rd south of the pike. The Black Horse saw most of its action during the retreat, and I don’t think Stuart was with them. I could be wrong though.

Just like all Union batteries were Sherman’s Battery to the Confederates, all Rebel cavalry became Black Horse Cavalry to the Federals.

I know one cav guy who was pleased with Stuart’s charge because they were apparently holding their sabers correctly (wrist locked, curve pointing down). But let’s face it, it’s just cavalry. Artillery rules!

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